Weight Loss

Straight off this is a spin off thread from the "Is it just me or does everybody seem like PIGS" thread. 

NOTE: Just in case it comes up, I am in no way advocating harassing people about their weight, food choices, or grocery carts in a one-to-one scenario. 

The heat on the thread above came from the idea that an individual would look at another individual (in a store, in a food court, at their lunch desk) and think there were a "pig" for their food choices.

It's hardly surprising that this was an inflammatory remark on a weight loss board. 

The second interesting flash point in the thread came when a poster said that it was this negative judgement of others that contributed to her eating more and continuing her over eating disorder (I would assume the same could be said for an under eating disorder). 

From these two comments we ended up with what I will call a strong support for rampant individualism. 

On one hand posters were outraged that people would have the audacity to judge the contents of someone else's grocery cart, because that is mean and rude (to summarize). On the other hand those who said it's those judgmental people who helped make me fat were also denigrated for not taking personal responsibility for their own eating choices. 

Basically the overwhelming consensus became what I eat is none of your business and what you eat is none of mine. 

I can't pin point exactly why but this rang as a really bad idea to me. 

It's hardly a secret that North America is engaged in an obesity epidemic. Over 50% of adult American's are overweight, the percentage of overweight and obese children is growing exponentially, and this generation is the first generation projected not to live as long as their parents. 

Ultimately what we put in our mouths is our decision, but a decision is reached from the choices available and I began to question how free our choices are. 

The individualist argument will tells us that we simply have to choose to eat healthy foods in moderate quantities and exercise. This is the secret to a healthy weight and lifestyle. 

If it is that simple I have to ask, why are so many of us increasingly overweight?

I know I didn't wake up one morning and decide that I wanted to be overweight, I did not make a plan and decide to become overweight, I did not make an effort to become overweight. 

I suppose an argument can be made that I should have kept myself better informed as to what my nutritional requirements were and met them. I didn't. A lot of people didn't. In fact 50% of adult American's didn't. 

At this point I have to think that there is more at play here than my individual choice to choose a healthy lifestyle or not. 

My argument is that a healthy lifestyle is no longer intuitive. Or, that our intuition is so heavily bombarded by outside influences that it is rendered useless. 

Fast food is a multi-billion dollar industry, as is packaged goods, as are soft drinks. 

Fashion, cosmetics and the diet industries are each also multi-billion dollar industries. 

Our junk foods are heavily engineered products including taste and fragrance enhancers engineered to trigger our endorphins for pleasure. 

Billions of dollars tell Americans to find pleasure in fast food, and then to diet it off to fit into a size 0 dress. 

Jenny Craig is owned by Nestle (hardly the only major diet plan owned by a food company that also produces junk food). 

I can think of half a dozen fast food restaurants in less than 6 seconds (McDonalds, Wendy's, Arby's, Taco Bell, Burger King, Tim Hortons - yes I'm Canadian) but I can't think of one single healthy food choice restaurant that would have brand recognition internationally (or even nationally). 

Supermarkets are (in a well proportioned supermarket) 70% packaged goods. Retailing research helps lay out supermarkets to the extent that they have demographics on exactly which way the majority of people turn when they walk into a store (over 90% of people turn right by the way). 

With this kind of money, marketing and research behind the scenes of our food and image industries I really do have to question how much individual choice we really do have when choosing our foods. 

This is where I think judgment becomes important. Until we think about what we as a society are putting into our grocery carts we will not ask why. 

It's too easy and too reductionist to say that we are not influenced by or simply have to ignore the billion dollar a year food advertising industry. 

I think we are where smoking was 15 years ago. We now *know* without a doubt that obesity is bad for us. It's not just unfashionable, it's not just poor choices in clothes it's actually killing people at a higher rate than smoking ever was. 

Now sure, second hand fat doesn't kill.... well not in the same way that second hand smoke does...

However if 50% of the adult American population is overweight then there is something in our culture that is making it acceptable for us to slowly kill ourselves this way, and it obviously does affect others (witness the growing rates of obesity).

As I said at the top I'm not saying we should start picketing taco bell, or ridiculing the person in front of us at the grocery line... 

What we do need to think about is how far we're willing to push individual freedoms to allow ourselves to ignore a social epidemic.

 

mysticjbyrd: I'd like to know where you get your nihilistic views, but you have nothing on your home page; no bio, or anything. Let us know where you're coming from, or is this just a hit & run? I used to be a pretty angry person. I actually used to feel that the planet would be better off if 75% of humanity would simply cease to exist. But the truth is that the problem is not the numbers of humans on the planet, therefore, the solution does not lie in reducing population. If people don't change this will all happen all over again. No, I think the problem is that human consciousness has not caught up with it's technology. If we don't wake up to our synergistic existence on this planet and the responsibility that comes with having the technology, the ability to change our environment on the level that we now posses, we will simple cease to exist at all. I used to consider myself a misanthrope. It was because it hurt me so much, how so many humans disrespect this planet as a living organism. It is a living thing you know. I am a part of the body of this planet, just as we all are and so what harms the planet harms me in turn. We all need to recognize this, teach children this basic fundamental understanding of life. I have had to step back so many times in my life and bite my tongue, not that I always have, else I wouldn't be able to say this. People don't change when you get in their face screaming with self-righteous indignation. They do the opposite. They dig their heels in and protest you, even if they tend to share your views. I have to just live my life and say my peace when it's appropriate. I have taken the time to step back and examine what my true motives are for getting in people's faces with criticism. I have found that it is almost always a method of venting anger, unless I or someone else has been attacked. That is just as violent as hitting someone

I may have opinions about how people choose to live their lives, but unless someone is actively reaching out for it, my perspective and experience will only harm them when they don’t ask for it and they feel threatened and act defensively. If you really want to make a difference, act locally. That's my 2 cents'-worth. I like to post in these forums because I see how the tide is turning, finally. So many people out there are waking up compared to how it was 20 years ago. I've been around with my eyes open long enough to see it. We actually needed someone like Bush in office to rile enough people up to create change. Unfortunately, it often takes extreme suffering for people to wake up. Those "individualists" are a dying breed. Pay attention to who these people are. They tend to fall into similar demographs.

I consider myself a 'conscientious breeding-objector', which means I choose not to reproduce. That does not mean I fault others for having kids. True, if there were fewer people on the planet our environment would not be so heavily taxed, but studies have shown that our planet can sustain MUCH MORE human life than it currently does, but only if we change the way we live. Population is not the problem. Lifestyle is the problem. Lifestyle is a reflection of our individual consciousness. By raising consciousness, we are solving the problem.

What I mean by what's good for our bodies is good for the environment is really just a simplistic way of looking at lifestyle. I personally feel much more motivated to live healthier knowing that the decisions I make regarding the food and products I buy and consume effect my environment directly. Poor dietary habits, eating too much animal flesh, processed foods,... are much more of a strain on our environment. Perhaps, if someone is having a struggle finding the 'willpower' to remain on a healthy diet, considering that diet's impact on our environment may give them a deeper sense of responsibility, thereby offering more motivation to life healthy. Even medications people take get back into the public water supply and the technology is not set up to remove those compounds. I am not purporting a specific lifestyle. I am merely suggesting that we all make it a priority to raise our own personal consciousness. When we do that, the rest will follow. We are all unique creatures with our own creative ways of doing things.

It's pretty simple. We need to be more conscientious people in our personal lives, realize we are all essentially one organism floating in space and learn to care for this planet as if it were our own body. If that can happen, we'd all be radically different. We'd all be healthier. We'd all be happier.

Don't let this post fool ya though. I'm really very cynical and am working on that because it breeds unhappiness. But I am not a nihilist and do not prescribe to the cruel, anger-fueled notion that I am equipped to judge others and decide about their rights to live. Reminds of some other cultures, hmm... Nazi Germany, Mao, Spanish Inquisition. Yea, we've all had enough of that. What we all need more of is compassion. Healthy living isn't just about me. It's about all of us. Recognize the cause and effect of all your actions. Try to know how you impact everything. I know it's a tall order, but try to grow with that. Know that buying those apples from Australia in the US may not be the best decision for our environment.

Sorry so long a post. I can be wordy. Thanks for reading.

I think someone has watched Logan's Run one too many times. 

ok I skimmed and wanted to comment before I lost my thoughts, so sorry if I'm repeating some things.

I think this is a difficult subject where there's a fine line between social responsibility and infringing on peoples rights.

Though it does irk me that people feel it's not a social responsibility, aside from the moral and ecological responsibility (which I believe have been covered, and I agree are major factors), there's a material element as well. Most countries have some form of social health support, anyone who works pays into these things like it or not, so when you consider the cost of diseases who's main cause is obesity (diabetes and heart disease to name a few) yeah your effected by it your paying to treat people who are affected by these things. Now I'm not saying that these people don't deserve health care by any means, everyone should have a basic right to that. I'm just pointing out that like it or not your affected by obesity.

I also wanted to comment on the economics of this. which I believe have been brought up. There is the simple matter of supply and demand. Everyone blames fast food places/ convenience stores etc. But realistically these are businesses. They force people to eat there, it is peoples choice to eat there that keeps them in business. Yes they advertise, make things convenient, etc. but you can't really blame them this is good business practice, they do that to stay in business, like any good business would.  People seem to forget that they have the power to influence business, if the demand goes down for unhealthy processed foods, these places will either change to healthier alternatives or go out of business. A good example of this is that documentary 'Super-size me', it challenged the healthiness of Mc Donalds food, suddenly Mc Donalds started adding healthier alternatives for food, salads, apples, etc.  Is is perfect, no, did they take all the unhealthy choices off the menu, of course not there's still a demand for them, but it did effect a change.

 

Original Post by andybarc:

Original Post by mysticjbyrd:

Original Post by enchantingimage:

" It's hardly a secret that North America is engaged in an obesity epidemic. Over 50% of adult American's are overweight, the percentage of overweight and obese children is growing exponentially, and this generation is the first generation projected not to live as long as their parents."

That news should make you very happy, Mysticjbyrd. Perhaps, you should just go rest in peace. Knowing that. Obesity may be the answer to your dilemma.

No that is just retarded ppl consuming too much food. Maybe I should add them to the list as well.

Lets hear your great plan.

Phase 2 of my plan is to limit ppl to 1 child.

Phase 2 of your plan seems like it ought to be phase 1. Slightly less radical. It's what they have done in China. Not sure if they still do.

I'm not so convinced that the World is over populated. Where does the 7 billion people limit come from? If it is the case that the World is over-populated, why is your answer some sort of gene cleansing routine? How about all the smartest people get bumped off? Let's face it, the damage done to the Earth is done by modern technology. Perhaps if just us thickos were left, we'd live a simple life, unblighted by polloution, living off the land instead of processed foods.

PS. Have you seen Logan's Run? I think you'd like it.

The8 billion limit is the carrying capacity of the planet.  The max amount of resources we have to feed.

If you dont think overpopulation is related to the pollution of our planet then you are retarded.

The smart ppl develop the technology, but it is the dumb ppl who have 6 kids and drive a couple large SUVs getting 15 mpg.  Smart ppl are driving hybrids, have 1-2 kids, and using solar cells.

Wow, Thia was a great post. You all had some really great posts...yes, i am one ofr those fence sitters. This makes me miss university.

Thanks for a great read!

the following is not focused at any one person here so if anyone here feels attacked perhaps some honest introspection is required.  this pertains to a LOT of ppl.

it's irresponsible to point fingers and place blame.  lack of intelligence isn't the problem.  but irresponsible ppl pointing fingers and placing blame is certainly annoying.  just keep on passing the buck. you aren't winning any fans here and you certainly aren't persuading anyone with a sour attitude.  do you really want change?  if things actually change, could you be at peace without someone to blame for your unhappiness? 

some ppl just like to complain and ignore solutions because it helps them to distract from the real issue of their inner-turmoil.  i used to work with a guy who did that.  he complained about the management every day at lunch but never brought up his complaints with management.  he never tried to solve the problems he had.  he was still working there 2 years after I quit and had endured a demotion and pay cut!  he kept himself in a job where he had reason to complain.  it kept him from actually having to do anything to improve his life.  it was his excuse from living.  what a shame to waste a life like that. 

 

first- mystic has been on other posts saying things that just get people riled up- and they are getting the reaction that they want...

This is an interesting thread otherwise.

Original Post by thinthought:

first- mystic has been on other posts saying things that just get people riled up- and they are getting the reaction that they want...

This is an interesting thread otherwise.

 

I agree that he is a WUM, but let's not get fooled into thinking that even in trying to be controversial he is adopting a position isn't so outlandish that there aren't others that agree. I have been heartened to read the posts that challenge his, as in the main they are thought through and intelligent, rather than abusive or reverting to the 'you're rascist, fattist, sexist, anti-disabled, ageist' route.

Original Post by thinthought:

first- mystic has been on other posts saying things that just get people riled up- and they are getting the reaction that they want...

This is an interesting thread otherwise.

Absolutely.  This person has no bio, has not even offered any contribution to this community whatsoever.  This person has made 33 posts in the two days she/he has had an account here.  By my observation, I'd say what we have here is a 15 year old, geeky, pimple-faced little boy who thinks he's 'cool' because he can get a rise out of people online.  It's about all he has done this weekend.  The kids at school must really give him a hard time, that he feels the need to take it out here on strangers.  Ya gotta wonder about someone who spends an entire weekend on a community making enemies.  People like this should be banned from the community.  They don't take it seriously.  They have nothing to offer here. 

Don't let this little twerp shut down this forum.  It is a very interesting one.  He's just a fly in the ointment.  What a great claim to fame. 

Yeah totally agree went and checked them out a while ago, they'rejust out to get a reaction from folk, i decided just to ignore them. They'll get a warning from the Moderators.

Well, I've had to report the thread that I started. I would like to get back to the original discussion on the impact of our environment on our personal choices, and how we can influence that environment. 

Discussion on that topic is welcome. Discussion on killing segments of the population is considered a hate crime in Canada (where I'm from), I have asked to have all references to that topic removed or to have the thread closed and I will start another. 

Original Post by enchantingimage:

Quoted : "It's hardly a secret that North America is engaged in an obesity epidemic. Over 50% of adult American's are overweight, the percentage of overweight and obese children is growing exponentially, and this generation is the first generation projected not to live as long as their parents. 

Ultimately what we put in our mouths is our decision, but a decision is reached from the choices available and I began to question how free our choices are. 

The individualist argument will tells us that we simply have to choose to eat healthy foods in moderate quantities and exercise. This is the secret to a healthy weight and lifestyle. 

If it is that simple I have to ask, why are so many of us increasingly overweight?

I know I didn't wake up one morning and decide that I wanted to be overweight, I did not make a plan and decide to become overweight, I did not make an effort to become overweight. 

I suppose an argument can be made that I should have kept myself better informed as to what my nutritional requirements were and met them. I didn't. A lot of people didn't. In fact 50% of adult American's didn't. 

At this point I have to think that there is more at play here than my individual choice to choose a healthy lifestyle or not. "

 This is a very common misunderstanding for parents and individuals raised living by the same concept.

" I didn't raise my child to be a druggie "

" I didn't raise my children to be obese. "

" I wasn't raised to be this lazy. "

" I didn't decide to be overweight. "  ect

The whole " I didn't wake up one morning and decide that I wanted to be overweight, I did not make a plan and decide to become overweight, I did not make an effort to become overweight. 

What did you do??? What did you raise your child to be? What did you do in order help them become that? What were you raised to become?What did you decide to do? What plan did you make? What did you decide to be? What did you do in order to become that?

If the answer is " You didn't " than you made yourself what you currently are. You made yourself fat and you made your children fat. The same concept applies in other areas of life.

The same goes for saying you've been influenced.Or your children have been influenced to make unhealthy decisions. Or bad decisions in general.That's also your doing.

There are a lots of voices in our children's heads. As their parent you should be the loudest one. Just as it was your parents job to be the loudest one in yours as a child. As an adult regardless of past you should be accountable for your own actions or lack there of. Deciding what you allow through your filter.

Enchantingimage I'm not sure from your reply if you read the entire thread to this point (your post #30) or simply my response to the individualists.

My point is not to take away personal responsibility. In fact I go on to argue that personal responsibility is absolutely essential to personal weight loss change, to being able to develop that filter, and to being able to affect social change. 

The challenge that I laid for the individualists was what I see as the two critical flaws in a individual first argument.

1. The first mistake is assuming that to fix or care about social problems means taking responsibility for other people's actions, when it is in fact the exact opposite. To fix social problems and change social structures what is most often needs to be changed is our own actions.

2. The second mistake is to assume that social responsibility negates personal responsibility. This is not a zero sum game. It is not a choice between social and personal responsibility but a reconciliation of the two to maximize both. 

As parents and adults we need to exercise our filters and exert influence over our personal and family environments to the best of our capability. I would however argue that to stick our heads in the sand at that point and let "the rest" fend for themselves is a neglect of social responsibility. 

I am not (again) arguing or advocating picketing taco bell, but advocating a closer inspection of what we can do as consumers and as citizens to influence the environment beyond our front door. 

Original Post by supersized:

 

The good news is that the vast majority of people on this thread can locate their sense of civic responsibility. So lets challenge ourselves not to change the minds of the rampant individualists but to ask ourselves if we can see the problem can we talk about solutions. To mspw's point the internet is a global community so let's try to get some global thinking on these issues. 

First, let's take a look at some of the contributing factors to the obesity epidemic. I'm trying to pull these factors from the posts we have so far, I'm sure there are more we can add to the list. The list is also not in any particular order of priority.

 

• Nutritional Information / Education
  • Portion Control
    • Santonacci post #2As for packaged, processed, and junk foods - yes, they contribute to the problem.  But a person can still get fat eating "healthy food" too.
  • Nutritional Education
    • HealthFirst post #4until we really understand and address the factors that contributed to our weight gain, we cannot truly get past it and keep the weight off for good.
  • Early Nutritional Education
    • Thinthought post #5With more parents working full time or single parent homes with the parent working there is not much of an education for children on the side of health- and then it becomes much more difficult for the child when they become an adult to break those habits.
    • Treenut18 Post #17Many schools are not required to teach physical education. Overweight children are almost 2/3 at risk of becoming obese adults. It's cyclical
• Advertising 
  • "Health" labels
    • Karozel post #9there are a lot of mis-leading products and labels out there and the average consumer doesn't always realize (or care) what they are getting.They see some box that say "1/3 less sugar" and get it thinking it's healthier, actually reading the box shows that it has more sodium, added fat, and more calories, but yes, there is less sugar.
  • General
    • Sungamb post #18I'd just like to add that although individuals have the ability to make choices those choices are heavily influenced by advertising - if they weren't then companies like macdonalds wouldn't spend huge amounts of money advertising. Which implies that advertising works at a different level to just conscious choices (why ban smoking adverts if they are not going to cause non-smokers to start smoking). So as long as big companies are trying to make more and more money they will use advertising to sell more of their product to customers, so not necessarily just an issue of conscious choice.
• Food Engineering
  • Synthetic & Chemical Food Enhancers
    • Andybarc post #11For a while now, I have been interested in the idea that food producers are deliberately making food addictive. I simply don't know enough about the subject unfortunately. However, there have been times when I have consitently eaten foods that I knew to be awful yet I didn't understand why I was drawn to them (my vice was McD's Quaterpounder). I did wonder if it was the salt, but goodness only knows. What else could be put in food to make it addictive? Is is simply the addition of a particular flavour? or something more?
    • defrog3 post #24Well, the food manufacturers figured out in the 1980s that high fructose corn syrup was cheaper than using real sugar, and so they started using HFCS in their manufacturing process instead of sugar.  They also figured out that any type of sugar, when taken with the right amount of salt, will make us crave more food.  

• Social Interaction & Cultural Norms
  • Acceptable Recreation
    • Andybarc post #11I work as a lawyer specialising in child law. It seems that in almost every case I see someone asked what they do when exercising contact with their kids, the answer is take them to McDonalds. Nobody bats an eyelid! Just once I'd love to hear someone say, we cook a meal together. Of course they also say he/she plays on the Playstation, when I want to hear about trips to the park but that's a different story!
  • Family Food - Teaching children best food practices
    • mpatitucci post #16 I was even forced to eat more than I wanted because my mother was part of the clean-plate club. My mother wasn't abusive: She truly thought she knew what was best. And those habits are incredibly hard to break once they are formed.
  • Consumer Culture
    • treenut18 post #17 But obesity is a down right epidemic in America--we all wonder how it happened, but when we look back at the history of industry, it all makes sense; we wanted to see more of everything, faster, and for cheap. If you are looking for a good read (and quick, I promise), check out Fat Land by Greg Critser. It summarizes how we became a nation obsessed with food.
• Socio-Economic Divisions
  • Economics of Food
    • treenut18 post #17obesity has somehow become an income issue. You would think that low-income families would not be able to afford all they can eat, but remember all those lovely fast food places you just named? How expensive is the dollar menu? You can feed your entire family for under $15.
  • Residential Segregation
    • lessin08 post #22We live in cities that make it nearly impossible to walk anywhere. The store is miles... not blocks away. Our jobs are hours, not minutes away. As such we have engineered a society that makes us more mobile... but not physically mobile... technologically mobile. ...The cheapest and most convenient food, is the worst for us, and is more readily available than the healthier food...
      

I'm not sure where to put mspw's points on the impacts of consumer food culture on the environment. They are certainly valid and well taken. I'm not sure if they directly contribute to obesity. However, it is certainly the same attitude that would say "to hell with the environment as long as I can drive my SUV to work" that would also not consider the environmental impacts of eating. 

Next steps for me are talking about solutions. There are obviously some social ground swells that are creating demand and putting emphasis on solving obesity and social eating in a positive community aware way (no I do not mean government intervention). Some examples I would look to would be the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty (changing our perceptions of normal body images for women), the rise in Organic food lines in small and large grocery stores and chains alike, and the increasing popularity and awareness of the slow food movement and the 100 mile diet. 

How have these movements grown and built awareness and what can we do as civic minded citizens to increase accessibility and awareness of these and other programs or movements that could be equally as beneficial. 

 

 

A lot of people made a lot of good points pre-troll debate. Lets get back to them. 

I'd like to see more emphasis put on healthy lunches and nutrition education in schools. It's so important to develop healthy eating habits when you're young. It's easy to say, "Parents should pack healthy lunches for their kids," but this fails when even parents don't know what's healthy and what isn't, or are simply too lazy to do what they need to do.

I would hope that some of that education would filter down to the families. If not, at least the kids grow up knowing what they should be eating. I think this nutrition education needs to extend beyond the theoretical and into the practical: Take kids on a field trip to the supermarket and show them how to read labels and find healthy foods; how to eat well on a budget; maybe even a few recipes.

supersized, I have managed to figure out what, for me, was the core of my problem with the "pigs" thread.

The lack of compassion.

When I say don't judge, I don't mean "ignore anyone other than yourself". It's "don't put other people down based on incomplete and possibly inaccurate information, and hell, even if your information is perfect, try to be a little kinder and more humane than that".

The contents of someone's cart do not necessarily reflect their lifestyle - as someone said, it could be a chubby mom shopping for her skinny, insatiable teenage boys. What she eats could well be the fruit buried under the frozen meals. But even if a fat person does eat badly, and make themselves/keep themselves fat, how is it helpful to tsk-tsk them, call them pigs, or "educate"/lecture them? I know this isn't what you are advocating, but some people were.

I am an advocate of collective action, but there is a balance to be reached between collective responsibility and individual freedoms. Should school lunches be improved, should nutrition information be mandated on restaurant menus, should there be better public education on nutrition, should the corn subsidy be eliminated, YES, YES, YES. There are so many things that the government can do to improve things - and they are not doing it because of lobbying and corruption (big, big money is made from unhealthy foods). Most of them would not even have to be especially controversial among the libertarians - changing agricultural subsidies around, for instance, would be the single largest influence on making the food supply healthier.

But to categorize the obese as immoral, lazy, greedy, stupid vs. the thin who are virtuous, conscientious, smart etc... is not accurate. A person's size does not tell you about who they are. There are people who stay thin by snorting cocaine or purging twice a day. There are people who get fat due to thyroid problems or medication side effects. To assume that just because a certain number of people of that size get there a certain way, that everyone who looks like that must be the same, is profiling - no different than racial profiling, and just as offensive.

And can we please remember that a person's diet and exercise habits are among the least important indicators of value, worth and goodness? On this board I see people being reduced to their size and their dietary habits, as if that is the sum of their being. I'm more interested in knowing what a person does in this world, how do they make it a better place, than how many calories they eat. People like the small-minded troll on this thread make me remember that it's what's in a person's heart that matters, not what's on their hips.

The comparisons to social intervention on smoking are silly - smoking was banned so widely precisely because of its health effects on others, i.e. second-hand smoke. Not because of its effects on the smoker. Chewing tobacco isn't banned anywhere, for instance, even though it causes cancer too. And obesity is nowhere near killing as many people as smoking does. Especially since most of the "obese/overweight" are overweight, and not obese. There is no increased mortality from overweight (there's less, actually) - only true obesity makes you more likely to die young. Which is still 1/3 of adults in the U.S., and is still a real problem - don't get me wrong - which is crying for some collective action. But make that action "target" the unhealthy environment, not the obese people themselves. Make it stem from solidarity, not judgment and hate.

Very few people were actually saying "ignore the epidemic". Most of us were saying, hey there, stop with the negativity, have a little common courtesy. Just because someone is overweight or obese doesn't mean that they don't deserve as much respect as the next  person.  People shouldn't be harassed on a collective level any more than they should be harassed on an individual level.

Hi folks, Please get the thread back on topic ASAP.

This is not a thread about reducing the population. This is the weight loss forum. Those who want to continue a DIFFERENT discussion unrelated to weight loss, and not directly answering the questions the OP asked in the initial post and the ensuing RELATED discussion, take it to the Lounge and start a new thread.

Please also know this thread is being reviewed for being against posting guidelines.

Thank you,

NYCGirl, Moderator

Trustwoman I'm not sure if you're read through this thread or if you are simply responding based on the first line that the idea for this thread came from the other one.

So bear with me if I re-cover some ground here.

First let me say that in regards to the discussion which has popped up again here about the value of human life, I myself reported those posts, I hope to have them removed or have this thread closed and I will post the On Topic discussion on a new thread. 

As to your points, my reading of them is that they cover more completely the discussion that was happening with other people on the previous thread, which is why I started this one. I think you will agree that no where on the other thread did I ever advocate (and I specifically spoke against) accosting individuals, or pressuring individuals directly. I agreed and spoke against placing value judgements on people based on their weight. I agreed that all people needed to be valued and especially those people who are struggling. I would say this of someone who is overweight, a smoker, or a drug addict (or anyone else) - and yes I do see a difference between the three. 

So, lets agree that this thread is NOT about weather or not we should have compassion for other humans. We should. No one here (except for the troll that I'm trying to have the posts removed) has spoken about any lack of compassion or value judgement of people, so lets not bring that back in. 

It is out of compassion for fellow humans, for those in my world, my country, my city, my block that I am asking what has gone wrong in our society? While I agree that there is more that governments can do I also believe there is action that citizens and consumers can take.

To the credit of a few who have mentioned that fast food chains, convenience stores are businesses supplying a demand, then we as citizens and consumers can change that demand. I think that the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty is a good example of meeting a different kind of consumer demand. How do we as consumers an citizens reward businesses that create positive space, in stead of negative?

I disagree with your assessment of the smoking comparison. Saying that obesity and being overweight doesn't kill to me is like saying it's not smoking that kills people it's lung cancer. I would also argue that as a society there is a definite social pressure created towards over consumption. That over-consumption ideal not being limited to food. 

I did have a question on the statistic of 50% of Adult American's being overweight, and I will admit that this statistic was drawn from my recollection of news casts. 

Here is what I found online:

More than 60 percent of Americans aged 20 years and older are overweight. One-quarter of American adults are also obese.

- From a sports medicine report quoting the NIDDK - National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive Kidney Diseases

About two-thirds of adults in the United States are overweight, and almost one-third are obese, according to data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) 2001 to 2004

Heart and Stroke is the leading killer in North America. Both smoking and being overweight contribute to Heart and Stoke. Diabetes now the sixth leading killer in the United States has rose at 5% per year since 1990 and is 90-95% of the cases of Type 2 diabetes occur in adults over 40 who are overweight. 

I think at this point it is at the least naive to think that being overweight is a personal choice matter affecting no one but the person who is overweight, at the most it is socially irresponsible. 

Being overweight kills people, it's just not as popular to say that as it is about smoking. However it wasn't always acceptable to say that about smoking either. 

I do however agree that the only way to beat this epidemic is to target the unhealthy environment not the individual people. 

Just as it's apparent that it is more than personal choice that is causing an obesity epidemic, it is also apparent that it will take more than attacking or blaming individual people (which is in fact counter productive) to slow, stop and then reverse the epidemic. 

There have been some great identifiers here on what some of these environmental causes are, lets start looking for some actions and solutions. What can we do as citizens?

 

 

 

Whilst I appreciate the moderators intervention I'm am puzzled as to why a post I made in an effort to get the subject off of world population was removed yet comments a certain person made and who is out to cause trouble on many threads still remain...when they still mention "world population" and name calling. Rather unfair I think.

 

Edit: Sorry for the delay, but just to say this issue has been resolved between myself and the moderators.

Original Post by anndjoe:

Whilst I appreciate the moderators intervention I'm am puzzled as to why a post I made in an effort to get the subject off of world population was removed yet comments a certain person made and who is out to cause trouble on many threads still remain...when they still mention "world population" and name calling. Rather unfair I think.

I think the mods have gone OTT here. I had a post removed in which I said that the fella who had a masterplan to cleanse the population and a plan B to limit parentage to 1 child per family seemed odd to have his plans that particular way around! Hardly offensive. 

Hang on, I never said obesity doesn't kill people. Of course it does. Just not nearly as many people as smoking does. And smoking in public places was banned because of its direct health effects on bystanders, not the smoker himself. Therefore there is a valid argument to be made for violating the so-called "civil rights" of smokers that could not apply to people, say, overeating in public.

As for stats: as of last year, about 1/3 of American adults were obese, and another 1/3 were overweight, making 2/3 of the population overweight or obese. I was never questioning your statistics. However, it is worth mentioning that the increased mortality risks are associated with obesity, not overweight.

And I find it interesting that you called for suggestions about collective action, and I gave some, and you have ignored them. What can citizens and consumers do, other than work collectively through communities and governments? What do you think will make governments enact change, except for the efforts of conscientious groups of individuals? Start working groups. Meet with your representatives. Investigate the circumstances that relate to your community - find out about the school lunches, for instance. Start a non-profit, volunteer organization that fundraises and distributes information about healthy eating to schools, hospitals, or even flyers entire neighbourhoods. Just don't target obese people specifically for these "interventions" - that is profiling and it is wrong. Just like you wouldn't give "just say no to crack" flyers to only black people, or "stop serial killing" flyers to only white men from 20-40 years old. And how to reward businesses who promote and support your ideals? Vote with your dollars. It's not complicated.

And do NOT start labelling people as "socially irresponsible" for being overweight or obese. When you go down that path, do you have any idea how many things can be accurately viewed as "socially irresponsible", but which we consider to be well within our individual rights and freedoms? That kind of thinking is not productive.

Look instead at the toxic environment, and change that as much as you can.