The Lounge

For you to debate.

Does it matter? Does it really matter in most of our daily lives whether or not we humans were created by God or evolved from monkeys.

Does it change who you are? Does it change how you live? Does it affect whether or not you can get a job or be educated?

Alot of people get hung up about it, because it's not good science, not provable (Edit: Took out personal bias, want to stick to the discussion), but at the end of the day... does it really matter whether or not you believe in evolution or not?

There's over 200 years of scientific proof to back up evolution.

I have yet to see any (logical) proof to back up religion.

I don't see how you can even debate this...
Wouldn't you at least lean towards the more logical explanation...?

 

Dear both sides of the argument, particularly anyone who answered that no, evolution being real (or not) does not affect your daily life, I would beg to differ. The medicines that 99% of you have taken were tested on animals before human trials were done and the drugs were approved and sold on the open market. The reason this can be done is because mammals come from a common ancestor and thus share many similar body systems.

Or, ("MAGIC TALISMAN!") God made mice and rats that way and put them in our special kingdom just so that we can do our preliminary drug tests on them... and also so we remember not to leave crumbs on the kitchen counter. And to put food on the table of those sweet mousetrap manufacturers. And to sew Cinderella's dress. Omniscience/omnipotence really allows for a lot of nuance in character.

Also, scream and shout if you will, but sooner or later (probably later, because  for some reason it is such a fun thing for religious people to prattle on about, even without the backing moral heft of something like abortion) the church will quietly sweep this part of the bible under the rug like all the other passages that aren't interpreted literally anymore due to developments in science or plain old culture (how many fundies eat shellfish and meat on fridays and "spare the rod"? BLASPHEMERS!) Give it a rest, please. There are such better outlets for all of that passionate energy. Go feed homeless people.

Apologies if I am repeating anyones comments-- reading people's opinions about this raises my blood pressure and I only made it through about 8 responses before I had to stop for my health.

Wait a second - are you guys, like,  actually serious?

Surely there isn't still debate about creationism vs. evolution in the States? 

I mean, like, I guess I could sorta understand it in totally backwoods regions like, I dunno, Wasilla Alaska or something, but seriously, I thought you guys were a developed nation? 

Split

jodischief please oh please oh pretty please tell me you were homeschooled, particularly because your parents didn't trust the left winged liberal education you'd get through the public school system.

or also please tell me if you went to like Choate or Xavier or St. Pauls... for a totally different beef/bias than this one, but it's all just as well.

Of course it matters. Paradoxically, though, it matters so much that it doesn't matter.

Think about it: the answer to the question determines how you understand the makeup of the world. It frames the whole perspective. Admittedly, answers to questions like "what is the basis for morality" don't specifically matter on a daily basis, but the answer to that question does, because it creates the basic sorts of understanding of how you go about your daily business.

Where I think that people misundersand it is that it's not monolithic. Just because two people hold truck with evolution doesn't mean they think the same way about how to deal with poverty, for instance. But any answer has to work within the general framework of the structure of the world.

 

first, an ontological argument isn't evidence.  it's an argument.

second, FN people didn't believe in "the creator" until europeans arrived and corrupted their spirituality with god.  while many are devout christians and catholics, those who are closest to their traditional spirituality believe that all life (which includes inanimate objects like rocks, soil, air, mountains) are equal.  egalitarianism and creationism are irreconcilable.

 

why must we hate the interweb? does it deserve to be abused in this manner?

 

 

re: post # 49: "egalitarianism" was a poor choice of words.  beyond that, my point stands.  a spirituality that views plants, rocks, and insects as of as much value and as deserving of life as caribou and human beings isn't consistent with the concept of a higher being.  the hierarchy doesn't fit.  written language didn't exist until european christians introduced it, and god came with it.  the FN stories that teach spirituality and morality are parables about the natural world.  omit mentions of "the creator" and the stories are still rhetorically intact.

i know hundreds of Aboriginal Canadians from dozens of different clans (and none of them pay me a cent).  virtually all of those who talk about a creator are christians indoctrinated through the residential school system (albeit a generation or three back, for some).

editted to add: i've even had a few FN people tell me that they were grateful to the colonists for bringing god to their people, in spite of the disease, murder, abuse, etc. 

 

Original Post by mrneville:

Original Post by jblarghp:

There's over 200 years of scientific proof to back up evolution.

I have yet to see any (logical) proof to back up religion.

I don't see how you can even debate this...
Wouldn't you at least lean towards the more logical explanation...?

Actually Rene Descarte made an ontological argument for the existence of God in the 17th century which is still taught in first year philosophy courses...

 ...and that's where I stopped reading.

Original Post by mrneville:

Sorry, I don't see your point. Hierarchy is not inherent in the notion of a creator. If a creator created the rock that is why the rock has a worth and connection to the world around it.  That's the relationship between the people and the world that FN spirituality on. The caribou were put there for them, as were all things. But, I very much agree with you, whether they called it a creator or not doesn't change the system of belief, but that is what is consistent with the the european religion they were introduced to, there is that from which existence comes.

The acceptance of european religion actually took hold long before the residential school system was put in place. It was a result of very early missionary work which was probably much more benign than anything that followed it. Early relations between the two cultures were much more on an equal footing.

Thanks for your comments.

i agree that the christian hierarchy isn't necessarily inherent in a creationist scheme.  and the fact is, there's no documentation either way.  mine is an argument based on logic and rhetoric; the idea of the creator reads/sounds like an add-on. 

regardless, the caribou and other animals, plants, etc. weren't put here for the people.  that's a very christian idea.  FN people accept that using plants and animals is necessary for survival, but don't believe that those things were put here for their convenience.  following the traditional ways, for everything that's taken, something must be given back. 

and i'm well aware that the colonists and FN people had a cooperative relationship long before the residential schools.  the failure of traditional medicines (and the effectiveness of european medicines) against european diseases did as much or more to erode Aboriginal spirituality as residential schools.  imagine watching your people die by the hundreds while the medicines and practices you've always believed in only succeeded in making more people sicker.  imagine all those white folks praying to their god and staying healthy.  then imagine that your own people start to go to the white people for medicine and religion and get well.  you might start talking about god pretty fast, too.

Original Post by jblarghp:

There's over 200 years of scientific proof to back up evolution.

I have yet to see any (logical) proof to back up religion.

I don't see how you can even debate this...
Wouldn't you at least lean towards the more logical explanation...?

 I totally agree, but to force a creation believer to learn about evolution is a total waist of time and money so the subject should be choice only.

People are free to believe in whatever they want but I don't think it is right to force your beliefs on anyone. Just as we object to Religion being forced on us surely it's just as wrong to force ours on them, regardless of any proof we have. Double Standards....

 

anndjoe, though I agree that we should not try to force our beliefs on others, the U.S. was founded on the belief in the separation of church and state.  To suggest, as one poster did, that public schools should be required to separate those that believe and those that don't and then provide tutors for the non-believers is completely impractical.

Allowing religious groups to determine the curriculum for individual students in public schools only furthers their mission to reduce public schools to sectarian educational enclaves. 

I have to wonder what the motives of Post #10 are.  Allowing his/her child to learn about evolution opens the door for a discussion on why you choose to believe in creation instead.  Should children be allowed to remain ignorant of ideas for the benefit of easy indoctrination into a religion?

Original Post by anndjoe:

I don't think it matters one little bit how you believe we got here. The fact is we are here so why get all caught up with "How".

 Wasn't it your recent thread that was multiple pages of "why"?  I mean, if the "how" doesn't matter, does the "why"?

I'm only on page 1, so perhaps this has already been addressed.

To me, the how does matter in the sense that it may provide not only a glimpse into our past, but a way to help predict the future of our species and of others.  Are we still evolving in some way?  If not, is that a problem? 

The why doesn't matter to me one bit.

I digress: Does anything REALLY matter?