The Lounge

Can anyone explain to me why many liberals think the wealthy aren't paying their fair share of taxes?  If you can support it with statistics, I'd much appreciate it.

Also...
1)  How will increasing Federal Income Tax help?  Would you increase it across the board or just for higher income earners?
2)  How will increasing taxes paid by large corporations help?  Keep in mind, corporation implies that it is owned by the people... taxes on corporations ultimately reduce their profits which in turn reduces value of the peoples' ownership in that company.
3)  What should be done with FICA (social security)?  Increase?  Leave the same?  Abolish it?

7 & 13: and what if you can't 'keep working'? God Almighty. There are more single mothers than ever, what happens when they get to be 65, 75? Keep frying up burgers at McDonalds? Keep bartending? What about all 'the people's' corporations laying off retirement-age managers in order to hire cheap college grads, then revoking their retirement benefits?  

Part of our responsibility as humans on this planet is to take care of each other. No one is suggesting people ought to get a free ride who can work, but come on, 'if you can't retire keep working'?

seriously?

edited to credit original sentiment

I need to chime in here.  I live in California, and I'm a CPA.  I used to work in a tax firm that serviced high net worth individuals.  I am no longer a tax accountant, so I disclaim that this is based on personal observations from 5+ years ago.

The very wealthiest of Americans, as a % of their income (not total dollar amount), really do pay less taxes.  It's due to the fact they they have many more loopholes available to them because they are generally business owners, or have complex family partnerships and trusts set up to reduce the tax burden of their investments.  In addition, many high level executives have "deferred compensation" programs to reduce their tax liability.  People who earn a straight W-2 income, have a much harder time trying to offset their income, and as such pay a higher % of taxes.

The "wealthiest Americans" I'm talking about are a much more select group than 1%.  I'm talking about people who earn hundreds of millions in a year.  The top 1.5% (I couldn't find the statistics for 1%) earns a mere $250K per year.  This is easily attainable by double income families in metropolitan areas.  The people that get screwed the most are people in the 1-2% range that earn their income through a W-2.  Many of the deductions start phasing out at this level, leaving these individuals VERY exposed to taxes.

I'd be in favor of a taxing system to take a lot more from people earning in excess of $1 million per year.

A consumption tax is an unfair tax on the poor.  They are forced to spend a very high % of their income on necessities.  The rich on the other hand, spend a smaller % of their income each year.  I personally think sales tax should be abolished, as well as any flat tax system.

And Social Security - don't think of it as putting money away for yourself.  You're putting away money for the social welfare of the entire country.  The idea is NOT "I put in $5, so I get $5."  It is, "I have this amount of excess income, and I'm supporting those less fortunate than me, including the disabled and the elderly". 

I do not think there should be a cap on social security.  I think it should continue to come out of every dollar earned.  The shortfalls of the systems could be eliminates this way.  In addition, I think high income/net worth seniors should not receive it, as they are not "needy."  If you have $500K in income each year from your tax free investments, why should you take that $800 per month away from someone that really needs it?

Original Post by kathygator:


2) as long as 'the people's' corporations are allowed to lay off 'the people' and move jobs offshore, why then 'the people' are allowed to expect that 'their' corporations should at least cough up some of those profits in the form of taxes.

Well, corporations are essentially being double-taxed.

First, they make a profit off selling widgets or whatever and the gov't taxes them 35% or so on that profit.

Then, if it is a dividend corporation, the dividends get taxed by Federal Income Tax.  Finally, any increase in the market cap of the firm as a result of the income is taxed by Federal Income Tax when owners sell their shares.

Corporations pay their dues... twice.

Original Post by dcyounts:

Then, if it is a dividend corporation, the dividends get taxed by Federal Income Tax.  Finally, any increase in the market cap of the firm as a result of the income is taxed by Federal Income Tax when owners sell their shares. 

Please make sure you are using clear language.  That INCOME is being taxed multiple times.

BUT:

The corporatrion is paying once

The individual is paying once

The corporation is a seperate entity than the individual, and this is only a disadvantage in closely held corporations.  However, you would think closely held corps would be smart enough to do business in one of the many other more tax adventageous forms of business such as an LLC or SCorp.

When you're 90 years old, wheelchair bound, and have huge medical bills, where exactly are you supposed to work?

Call me a selfish a******, but that's not my problem. I will help someone I love in that situation, of course, even donate to charity's but it's not the government's responibility to forcibly take my hard earned money (which I may be saving should the same thing happen to me), to give to someone else who didn't prepare.

Being a "we" society is not synonymous with "ants."  All that means is giving a damn about our fellow citizens, rather than living a pathetic "ME ME IT'S ALL ABOUT ME" existence.

I don't know exactly know what you meant, and if I misunderstood, I apologize. But often times, comments like that imply that the fruits of one's labor should be forcibly taken and given to some one else. If that's a "we" society, I want no part of it. I don't expect anyone to be robbed on my behalf, and I don't expect to be robbed either. I care about individuals, I will even donate to charity, but again, at my choice, not the governments.

"someone with $50,000 a year and 2 kids can save enough to be well off"

Yes, it can be done, but it means that they live a very very frugal meager existence for a very long time. Very few people want to live that way.

Oh, I'm sure no one wants to live that way, but in this world, we can't always have what we want. I'm sure we'd all love to have the money to have a nice house, nice car, not have to worry about the price of gas, have whatever, but it doesn't happen that way, and attempts to make it that way will eliminate the incentive to work, or innovate. But someone it that situation really has 2 choices, sacrifce a little now, to be comfortable later, or spend now, and pay for it later, unfortunatly that's life

I get what you're saying about how a greater percentage of a lower income family's income will be taxed under a comsumption syste, (which doesn't bother me personally, remember selfish a******) but most plans do recognize that (including the plan I cited above) and do suggest stipends for lower income families for exactly that reason, and I think that would be a good compromise. The thing is, it would encourage investment (instead of encouraging spending, like our system does now). And it's investment that increases production capabilities and helps everyone by making goods more affordable in the long run.

The corporation is a group of individuals.  The group is taxed once.  Then, each individual within the group is taxed a second time.  Double taxation.

Why are many of these corporations fleeing to other countries?  Is it because of the conservative pro-capitalists?  No.  Is it because of the socialist liberals?  Yes.  Blame liberals for that...

The thing is, it would encourage investment (instead of encouraging spending, like our system does now). And it's investment that increases production capabilities and helps everyone by making goods more affordable in the long run.

This is almost 100% Reaganomics and that didn't help our country now did it? The trickle down effect doesn't trickle very far. It never did, I doubt it ever will.

Original Post by dcyounts:

The corporation is a group of individuals.  The group is taxed once.  Then, each individual within the group is taxed a second time.  Double taxation.

I beg to differ based on my in-depth understanding of corporate structures, how much training have you had in this area?

Go ahead and simplify it, but it is a fallacy, and by using this as an argument, you are negating all power of your argument.

The reasons why so many companies are fleeing to other countries is out of short term greed. They don't care who is in charge or what policies are in effect. They are going to go wherever they can and do whatever they can to put more profits into the hands of the holders of the corporation. They don't care if it hurts workers here in the US. They don't care if they exploit children overseas. They don't care if they poison the environment.

Hee hee ... Spoiled college kid spouting party rhetoric versus the learned CPA ...

*gets popcorn*

*sits back*

Original Post by yachtracer1977:

If you can't retire, tough... keep working.

Typical statement from one born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

We need to move from a "me" society to a "we" society ... paraphrased from Michael Moore, but so damn true.

I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth... I was born a military brat.  It wasn't until I was 16 that we moved into a nice house in a nice neighborhood.

You plan for your retirement... I'll plan for mine... If I want to give money to charity or for causes, I will... but DON'T think that anyone is obligated to take food from their own children and give it to someone coming up to them with their hands out looking for something free.

Original Post by moonikins:

The reasons why so many companies are fleeing to other countries is out of short term greed. They don't care who is in charge or what policies are in effect. They are going to go wherever they can and do whatever they can to put more profits into the hands of the holders of the corporation. They don't care if it hurts workers here in the US. They don't care if they exploit children overseas. They don't care if they poison the environment.

You have been so disillusioned by the comical reports of the media.

Original Post by dcyounts:

Why are many of these corporations fleeing to other countries?  Is it because of the conservative pro-capitalists?  No.  Is it because of the socialist liberals?  Yes.  Blame liberals for that...

Liberals are making corporations flee to other countries?  In your mind does "liberal" mean "cheap labor pool"? 

taxes suck, well  they do when you expect an extra 40+ dollars in your paycheck. but in the big picture mentality we really like driving on our roads a lot garbage men getting rid of our trash etc etc.  we use the services and it's less of a headache than trying to figure out how to divide our money to everything we use.We take a lot for granted, at least I do. there's information right here on the good ole web on how to get around on some taxes[legally](At least so I'm told), you can pay a lawyer but it's a hassle. so either pay or be smarter than the average heavily taxed person, I just pay.

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by dcyounts:

Why are many of these corporations fleeing to other countries?  Is it because of the conservative pro-capitalists?  No.  Is it because of the socialist liberals?  Yes.  Blame liberals for that...

Liberals are making corporations flee to other countries?  In your mind does "liberal" mean "cheap labor pool"? 

Fleeing the US and outsourcing labor are two different things.

The thing is, it would encourage investment (instead of encouraging spending, like our system does now). And it's investment that increases production capabilities and helps everyone by making goods more affordable in the long run.

This is almost 100% Reaganomics and that didn't help our country now did it? The trickle down effect doesn't trickle very far. It never did, I doubt it ever will.

Actually, it's macroeconomics 101: saving=investment; Investment goes up, production capabilities go up, GDI goes up, unemployment goes down, in the long run, which, admitably, is vague.

Why are many of these corporations fleeing to other countries?  Is it because of the conservative pro-capitalists?  No.  Is it because of the socialist liberals?  Yes.  Blame liberals for that...

Excactly. I wonder why people think the rich are evil, and should be taxed a greater percentage than everyone else? I mean, they've earned that money, why should more of it be forcibly removed from them at a greater rate than someone else? And don't say, cause they don't "need" it the vast majority of people make more than they "need" yet are taxed at lower rates.

As for social security, it's a scam. It's exactly the same as the chain letter that goes around saying "send one $1 to each of the above five people, then remove the first name and put your name at the bottom and send it to 5 people, you put in $5 and get out $3125" Because that's what you're doing, you're giving money to retired individuals, with the hope that a)they don't last too long (social security was designed to help people when people lived only a few years after retirement) b) There's a greater number of people to pay you once you retire and c) The government doesn't screw it up (like they did in the 60's when the babyboomers were paying into it).

And social security is nothing like taking extra income to give to those who need it. It's taking from every working indivdual to give to every retiree. I don't think of it as money I put in to get later, because I know I won't, it's just more lost money...

Aww, lunch time

Original Post by dcyounts:

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by dcyounts:

Why are many of these corporations fleeing to other countries?  Is it because of the conservative pro-capitalists?  No.  Is it because of the socialist liberals?  Yes.  Blame liberals for that...

Liberals are making corporations flee to other countries?  In your mind does "liberal" mean "cheap labor pool"? 

Fleeing the US and outsourcing labor are two different things.

Now that's a completely different subject............tell that to all the little kids who work from morning to night for pennies just so we can all have *nice things* 

 

I wasn't talking about outsourcing labor... she brought it up.  When I said "companies are fleeing," I was referring to companies establishing new headquarters in places like Dubai where they won't be taxed as much.

As per outsourcing labor, the companies aren't forcing children to work... the society in that country/region is.  And overall, outsourcing is beneficial to the world economy as a whole.