Soy, Estrogen, and Men??
I recently heard that a diet rich in soy may be unhealthy for men as it increases estrogen production. Anyone know specifics about this? What are the risks/benefits for men? Thanks.
I don't think there is much known about this issue. The estrogen-like compounds are soy isoflavones and there have been several conflicting studies about them. For example, some studies show increased risk of breast cancer in women, some show decreased risk. I think the safest approach is to eat soy conservatively ... a couple of times a week is probably fine; after all, asian cultures have been eating soy for centuries.
Soy's been eaten for thousands of years, actually, but pretty much only in a fermented state. Non-fermented soy is high in phytoestrogens which can definitely mess with hormones in both men and women.
Women's reactions to phytoestrogens range from the benign, e.g. stimulated breast growth, to the malignant, e.g. more troublesome periods and increased incidence of ovarian and breast cancer. As for men, there aren't a lot of studies on the effects of phytoestrogens yet, but early evidence is showing a correlation between decreased sperm count and increased exposure to environmental estrogens.
Basically, unfermented soy is not a suitable food for regular consumption.
Fermented soy products:
natto
miso
tempeh
traditional soy sauce
Non-fermented soy products:
soy milk
tofu
modern soy sauce (which is actually mostly wheat!)
soy oil
additives to thousands of commercial shelf products
Notice that the non-fermented products are modern inventions and only consumed in huge amounts recently. Also, guess who leads the world in soy consumption: The US. Guess which country has the highest incidences of breast cancer and osteoporosis, despite all the fuss over getting calcium from your milk or soy milk: The US. Hmm.
Women's reactions to phytoestrogens range from the benign, e.g. stimulated breast growth, to the malignant, e.g. more troublesome periods and increased incidence of ovarian and breast cancer. As for men, there aren't a lot of studies on the effects of phytoestrogens yet, but early evidence is showing a correlation between decreased sperm count and increased exposure to environmental estrogens.
Basically, unfermented soy is not a suitable food for regular consumption.
Fermented soy products:
natto
miso
tempeh
traditional soy sauce
Non-fermented soy products:
soy milk
tofu
modern soy sauce (which is actually mostly wheat!)
soy oil
additives to thousands of commercial shelf products
Notice that the non-fermented products are modern inventions and only consumed in huge amounts recently. Also, guess who leads the world in soy consumption: The US. Guess which country has the highest incidences of breast cancer and osteoporosis, despite all the fuss over getting calcium from your milk or soy milk: The US. Hmm.
venix - what are your sources? I'm curious because the only difference I've found between fermented and unfermented soy is that fermentation increases bioavailability of soy isoflavones. That is discussed here. There is also a study showing decreased risk of breast cancer in women with consumption of miso soup (fermented product), but no correlation with consumption of soy foods (including both fermented and unfermented products). Lastly, this study showed a correlation between consumption of soy foods and a decreased risk of prostate cancer in men. I haven't seen any studies linking soy with decreased sperm count, and if I am to believe this study, there aren't any. I'm willing to grant that if isoflavones have benefits then fermented soy products are superior, but I'm less convinced that unfermented soy is not a "suitable food," especially since asians have been cultivating soybeans since about 2800 B.C. and invented tofu in the second century B.C. ... not exactly "modern" inventions.
Not only tofu, but plain old steamed soybeans have been consumed regularly in Asia for a very long time. I would say that the effects of soy on the body are not yet well understood by science, but the experience of pretty much every east Asian person suggests that it's not going to harm you. In fact, the Japanese have one of the longest average lifespans.
Fermentation breaks down isoflavone phytoestrogens
There are a lot of reasons to be wary of soy estrogens. One of them is the fact that genistein (the main phyto-estrogen in soy) tends to replace human estrogen, and over time the body makes less natural estrogen. "So what," you say, "just keep eating soy." Well, aside from the negative geopolitical aspects of this plan, it turns out that genistein increases the cell turnover rate in bones, which is the opposite of the cell lifecycle-lengthening effect that natural human estrogen has.
In other words, getting lots of soy estrogens in your diet may accelerate the rate at which your bones age. Aged bones are weaker bones; prematurely aged bones is one theorized cause of osteoporosis.
Everything else I know about soy estrogens is just from observation, so you can take or leave my anecdotal evidence. One of my friends' saw her breasts grow a size over the course of year when she switched from 2 cups of milk a day to 2 cups of soy milk a day; she also experienced much longer periods and a lot of breast soreness. Some women seem to feel better having more estrogen in their systems; some don't.
My point is that people need to be wary of soy. It's not the health food that the soy industry wants everyone to think it is.
Yeah, I saw the prostate cancer thing. I don't know enough about that to comment.
About tofu: You're right, it's not a modern invention, my bad. What is modern about it is the heavy reliance on it as a food as opposed to a condiment.
As for Asian soy consumption, I've seen way too few studies that take into account whether the soy being consumed is fermented or not to make any judgements about how their soy consumption affects their health.
Finally -- just because you CAN eat a food, and survive on it, doesn't mean you should. The fact that we fed cow parts to other cows and they lived long enough for us to slaughter them doesn't make them carnivores. It just means that Nature Finds a Way... and then it gives us Mad Cow Disease. >:-)
ps. about sources: keep in mind that most serious scholarly publications aren't even on the internet yet, or if they are, it's only in the (basically useless) abstract form.
There are a lot of reasons to be wary of soy estrogens. One of them is the fact that genistein (the main phyto-estrogen in soy) tends to replace human estrogen, and over time the body makes less natural estrogen. "So what," you say, "just keep eating soy." Well, aside from the negative geopolitical aspects of this plan, it turns out that genistein increases the cell turnover rate in bones, which is the opposite of the cell lifecycle-lengthening effect that natural human estrogen has.
In other words, getting lots of soy estrogens in your diet may accelerate the rate at which your bones age. Aged bones are weaker bones; prematurely aged bones is one theorized cause of osteoporosis.
Everything else I know about soy estrogens is just from observation, so you can take or leave my anecdotal evidence. One of my friends' saw her breasts grow a size over the course of year when she switched from 2 cups of milk a day to 2 cups of soy milk a day; she also experienced much longer periods and a lot of breast soreness. Some women seem to feel better having more estrogen in their systems; some don't.
My point is that people need to be wary of soy. It's not the health food that the soy industry wants everyone to think it is.
Yeah, I saw the prostate cancer thing. I don't know enough about that to comment.
About tofu: You're right, it's not a modern invention, my bad. What is modern about it is the heavy reliance on it as a food as opposed to a condiment.
As for Asian soy consumption, I've seen way too few studies that take into account whether the soy being consumed is fermented or not to make any judgements about how their soy consumption affects their health.
Finally -- just because you CAN eat a food, and survive on it, doesn't mean you should. The fact that we fed cow parts to other cows and they lived long enough for us to slaughter them doesn't make them carnivores. It just means that Nature Finds a Way... and then it gives us Mad Cow Disease. >:-)
ps. about sources: keep in mind that most serious scholarly publications aren't even on the internet yet, or if they are, it's only in the (basically useless) abstract form.
Oh yeah, the sperm count thing:
I didn't say "soy estrogens", I said "environmental estrogens". This is important. Environmental estrogens include phytoestrogens from plants and estrogenic chemicals from things like plastics and pesticides.
It's still under investigation whether environmental estrogens cause decreased sperm count, which is why I said "correlation" not proof.
People are already exposed to a pretty high degree of environmental estrogens from plastics and pesticides, so why push it any more by putting soy in your diet?
I'm basically expressing my opinions here, not trying to engage in rigorous scientific discussion, and my opinion is this: Soy is a bean that has to be cooked to be eaten. It's very new in the human diet -- thousands of years is new enough evolutionarily speaking. So it's not exactly nature's perfect food for humans, at best, and at worst it can have a lot of negative effects on us. It pays to be cautious, particularly when so many of the alleged benefits of soy have really been pushed on us by the soy industry itself.
I'm not saying AVOID ALL SOY. Have a little. Just don't put tons of it in your diet thinking it's a health food.
Personally -- as a health nut and a martial artist with way more energy than she knows what to do with -- I think it's a totally pointless food, nutritionally. But your mileage may vary.
I didn't say "soy estrogens", I said "environmental estrogens". This is important. Environmental estrogens include phytoestrogens from plants and estrogenic chemicals from things like plastics and pesticides.
It's still under investigation whether environmental estrogens cause decreased sperm count, which is why I said "correlation" not proof.
People are already exposed to a pretty high degree of environmental estrogens from plastics and pesticides, so why push it any more by putting soy in your diet?
I'm basically expressing my opinions here, not trying to engage in rigorous scientific discussion, and my opinion is this: Soy is a bean that has to be cooked to be eaten. It's very new in the human diet -- thousands of years is new enough evolutionarily speaking. So it's not exactly nature's perfect food for humans, at best, and at worst it can have a lot of negative effects on us. It pays to be cautious, particularly when so many of the alleged benefits of soy have really been pushed on us by the soy industry itself.
I'm not saying AVOID ALL SOY. Have a little. Just don't put tons of it in your diet thinking it's a health food.
Personally -- as a health nut and a martial artist with way more energy than she knows what to do with -- I think it's a totally pointless food, nutritionally. But your mileage may vary.
Oh wow - I've been wondering about that myself. I started eating a lot more soy yogurt earlier this year, and have started to experience - guess what -longer periods and breast tenderness.
I was thinking it could be the soy or maybe flax, which I also added to my diet. I've decided to drop both for now and see if there's any change.
Has anybody else experienced anything like this? Of course, I am also 47 years old, so the soy/flax thing could just be a red herring!
I was thinking it could be the soy or maybe flax, which I also added to my diet. I've decided to drop both for now and see if there's any change.
Has anybody else experienced anything like this? Of course, I am also 47 years old, so the soy/flax thing could just be a red herring!
"About tofu: You're right, it's not a modern invention, my bad. What is modern about it is the heavy reliance on it as a food as opposed to a condiment.
As for Asian soy consumption, I've seen way too few studies that take into account whether the soy being consumed is fermented or not to make any judgements about how their soy consumption affects their health."
I really don't think many Americans are eating more tofu today than the average Korean (my personal observation is of Korea) has been eating for quite some time. In fact, as the socioeconomic status of Korea rises, people are actually eating LESS tofu and more meat, and they still eat more tofu. The cafeteria at my school serves something with tofu in it upwards of three times a week.
The sheer number of ways to prepare tofu in traditional Korean cuisine also belies the idea that eating a good deal of tofu is "new." It's simply not so; it is a traditional food of East Asia and has been consumed here in large quantities for quite some time.
Furthermore, the huge variety of traditional soy foods in Korea essentially guarantees that you will be eating soy, fermented or no, every single day. Even soy "milk" has been available here for hundreds of years (though not really as a substitute for milk, since milk-drinking is a relatively new phenomenon).
Anyway, my point is, East Asians have been eating soy BOTH fermented and unfermented, for a long long time. It is a staple food and not merely a condiment. It's not killing them, and they're not just "surviving on it." The research on soy is interesting, but the experience of billions of East Asian people tells me that at this point there is no compelling reason to avoid soy.
As for Asian soy consumption, I've seen way too few studies that take into account whether the soy being consumed is fermented or not to make any judgements about how their soy consumption affects their health."
I really don't think many Americans are eating more tofu today than the average Korean (my personal observation is of Korea) has been eating for quite some time. In fact, as the socioeconomic status of Korea rises, people are actually eating LESS tofu and more meat, and they still eat more tofu. The cafeteria at my school serves something with tofu in it upwards of three times a week.
The sheer number of ways to prepare tofu in traditional Korean cuisine also belies the idea that eating a good deal of tofu is "new." It's simply not so; it is a traditional food of East Asia and has been consumed here in large quantities for quite some time.
Furthermore, the huge variety of traditional soy foods in Korea essentially guarantees that you will be eating soy, fermented or no, every single day. Even soy "milk" has been available here for hundreds of years (though not really as a substitute for milk, since milk-drinking is a relatively new phenomenon).
Anyway, my point is, East Asians have been eating soy BOTH fermented and unfermented, for a long long time. It is a staple food and not merely a condiment. It's not killing them, and they're not just "surviving on it." The research on soy is interesting, but the experience of billions of East Asian people tells me that at this point there is no compelling reason to avoid soy.
I'm basically expressing my opinions here, not trying to engage in rigorous scientific discussion, and my opinion is this: Soy is a bean that has to be cooked to be eaten. It's very new in the human diet -- thousands of years is new enough evolutionarily speaking. So it's not exactly nature's perfect food for humans, at best, and at worst it can have a lot of negative effects on us. It pays to be cautious, particularly when so many of the alleged benefits of soy have really been pushed on us by the soy industry itself.
Soy milk and tofu are both cooked during production. Additionally, soy was consumed well before the invention of tofu. It's not that new.
No food is the "perfect food," and I don't think anyone is saying it is so. But it's a perfectly good, natural food. If you don't like it, that's fine, but when you say something like, "unfermented soy is not a suitable food for regular consumption," you're making a claim of fact, not opinion.
Soy milk and tofu are both cooked during production. Additionally, soy was consumed well before the invention of tofu. It's not that new.
No food is the "perfect food," and I don't think anyone is saying it is so. But it's a perfectly good, natural food. If you don't like it, that's fine, but when you say something like, "unfermented soy is not a suitable food for regular consumption," you're making a claim of fact, not opinion.
Soy milk and tofu are both cooked during production.
Yep. I never said they weren't.
Additionally, soy was consumed well before the invention of tofu. It's not that new.
It's new on the evolutionary scale. Plus, you're talking about fermented soy, which is exactly what I was saying -- fermented soy is the traditional food, unfermented soy is newer.
No food is the "perfect food," and I don't think anyone is saying it is so. But it's a perfectly good, natural food.
I beg to differ. If you have to cook something to make it consumable, it's not really natural. I could go on at length about the reasons why this is important, but I'd just be reiterating things that tons of other raw foodists have written around the net. (I don't believe in the enzyme theory, though.)
If you don't like it, that's fine, but when you say something like, "unfermented soy is not a suitable food for regular consumption," you're making a claim of fact, not opinion.
This is forum on a site called calorie-count.com. If anybody here isn't taking everything said here with a grain of salt, and applying their own reasoning skills as to whether the information makes sense and applies to them, then I welcome messages regarding a bridge I have for sale.
Furthermore, the huge variety of traditional soy foods in Korea
essentially guarantees that you will be eating soy, fermented or no,
every single day.
Ok. The question is whether that's a good thing. Again, just because people survive on it doesn't mean it's ultimately a good idea to eat a lot of it.
Apparently, Alzheimer's is on the rise in Korea. Alzheimer's is linked to exposure to aluminum in the diet. Aluminum is found in abundance in tofu and soy milk. Interesting.
Ok. The question is whether that's a good thing. Again, just because people survive on it doesn't mean it's ultimately a good idea to eat a lot of it.
Apparently, Alzheimer's is on the rise in Korea. Alzheimer's is linked to exposure to aluminum in the diet. Aluminum is found in abundance in tofu and soy milk. Interesting.
Yep. I never said they weren't.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment that soy was meant to be cooked as implying that these foods were not.
Plus, you're talking about fermented soy, which is exactly what I was saying -- fermented soy is the traditional food, unfermented soy is newer.
Fermented soy may be older than tofu, but soybeans themselves are also eaten. I have not yet found a source for this, but I would be shocked to find that people ate doenjang/miso before they ate the bean itself.
I beg to differ. If you have to cook something to make it consumable, it's not really natural.
Really? Potatoes? Rice? Oatmeal? I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree in this case. It's certainly more natural than say, spray cheese, anyhow. :)
This is forum on a site called calorie-count.com. If anybody here isn't taking everything said here with a grain of salt, and applying their own reasoning skills as to whether the information makes sense and applies to them, then I welcome messages regarding a bridge I have for sale.
Certainly. But it's not helpful to people trying to make an informed decision if you report your personal conclusions, however true they may end up being, as if they are a widely and authoritatively accepted fact. It's their responsibility to evaluate your statements and draw their own conclusions of course, but it would be nice if you described them accurately.
Ok. The question is whether that's a good thing. Again, just because people survive on it doesn't mean it's ultimately a good idea to eat a lot of it.
Apparently, Alzheimer's is on the rise in Korea. Alzheimer's is linked to exposure to aluminum in the diet. Aluminum is found in abundance in tofu and soy milk. Interesting.
OK, now you're just spreading FUD. From the first abstract, which anyway is a study about treatment of AD, not causes:
With the Korean population rapidly aging and the number of Koreans with Alzheimer's disease (AD) steadily growing, treatment of AD is becoming an increasing concern.
There's no mention of soy there, just the aging population. Korea is a recently developed country, people are living longer and thus more likely to develop diseases of old age. I'll also mention that there's been a lot of news here recently about the connection between heavy drinking (very common here) and Alzheimer's. The soy connection is pure speculation on your part.
The second link is an interest group, not a scientific source. Here's some information from the NIH about aluminum in cookware and Alzheimer's.
The reason I'm linking to an article about cookware is that third link says that the aluminum content of the soy product is due to aluminum containers used in the manufacturing process, not any property of the bean itself. Now, regardless of whether or not this is a problem, it's a problem with the manufacturers, not the soy, and should be dealt with as such. Demand aluminum-free soy products if you want, sure. Don't act like it's an indictment of soy.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment that soy was meant to be cooked as implying that these foods were not.
Plus, you're talking about fermented soy, which is exactly what I was saying -- fermented soy is the traditional food, unfermented soy is newer.
Fermented soy may be older than tofu, but soybeans themselves are also eaten. I have not yet found a source for this, but I would be shocked to find that people ate doenjang/miso before they ate the bean itself.
I beg to differ. If you have to cook something to make it consumable, it's not really natural.
Really? Potatoes? Rice? Oatmeal? I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree in this case. It's certainly more natural than say, spray cheese, anyhow. :)
This is forum on a site called calorie-count.com. If anybody here isn't taking everything said here with a grain of salt, and applying their own reasoning skills as to whether the information makes sense and applies to them, then I welcome messages regarding a bridge I have for sale.
Certainly. But it's not helpful to people trying to make an informed decision if you report your personal conclusions, however true they may end up being, as if they are a widely and authoritatively accepted fact. It's their responsibility to evaluate your statements and draw their own conclusions of course, but it would be nice if you described them accurately.
Ok. The question is whether that's a good thing. Again, just because people survive on it doesn't mean it's ultimately a good idea to eat a lot of it.
Apparently, Alzheimer's is on the rise in Korea. Alzheimer's is linked to exposure to aluminum in the diet. Aluminum is found in abundance in tofu and soy milk. Interesting.
OK, now you're just spreading FUD. From the first abstract, which anyway is a study about treatment of AD, not causes:
With the Korean population rapidly aging and the number of Koreans with Alzheimer's disease (AD) steadily growing, treatment of AD is becoming an increasing concern.
There's no mention of soy there, just the aging population. Korea is a recently developed country, people are living longer and thus more likely to develop diseases of old age. I'll also mention that there's been a lot of news here recently about the connection between heavy drinking (very common here) and Alzheimer's. The soy connection is pure speculation on your part.
The second link is an interest group, not a scientific source. Here's some information from the NIH about aluminum in cookware and Alzheimer's.
The reason I'm linking to an article about cookware is that third link says that the aluminum content of the soy product is due to aluminum containers used in the manufacturing process, not any property of the bean itself. Now, regardless of whether or not this is a problem, it's a problem with the manufacturers, not the soy, and should be dealt with as such. Demand aluminum-free soy products if you want, sure. Don't act like it's an indictment of soy.
Wow. Interesting discussion, and I can't wait to go through more of these sources. I will point out that a lot of the bigger soy studies have been in Asia and the possibility of genetic factors has not been ruled out. And I agree with venix that there has not been much emphasis on distinguishing between fermented and unfermented soy products, although what data there is seems to be contradictory.
I think we can probably agree that, as far as what the OP was asking about, we just don't know much at this point about whether phytoestrogens have any negative effects on men. Chemically it seems possible, but studies to date haven't shown any correlation. Logically, the smaller the amount consumed, the less likely it is that you will experience side effects. To me, this means that tofu (like meat) is healthier as a condiment, not the centerpiece of your meal.
I think we can probably agree that, as far as what the OP was asking about, we just don't know much at this point about whether phytoestrogens have any negative effects on men. Chemically it seems possible, but studies to date haven't shown any correlation. Logically, the smaller the amount consumed, the less likely it is that you will experience side effects. To me, this means that tofu (like meat) is healthier as a condiment, not the centerpiece of your meal.
This is very interesting.
I tried to bring this up once before after adding Kashi bars to my daily diet & seeing, um, odd hormonal changes... but people got so mad at me for questioning the health of soy without having done my own detailed scientific study that I ran far away!!!
Thank you all for providing links to read up on more.
edit: this is the article I had pointed to then, which included a comparison of average grams of soy eaten by Asians compared to current in the US, plus the production of soy to begin with, which was concerning to me. Maybe it's valid & maybe not so much... I'm no scientist.
excerpt: "There's nothing natural about these modern soy protein products. Textured soy protein, for example, is made by forcing defatted soy flour through a machine called an extruder under conditions of such extreme heat and pressure that the very structure of the soy protein is changed. Production differs little from the extrusion technology used to produce starch-based packing materials, fiber-based industrial products, and plastic toy parts, bowls, and plates.16"
*please don't pounce on me... please don't pounce on me... *
I tried to bring this up once before after adding Kashi bars to my daily diet & seeing, um, odd hormonal changes... but people got so mad at me for questioning the health of soy without having done my own detailed scientific study that I ran far away!!!
Thank you all for providing links to read up on more.
edit: this is the article I had pointed to then, which included a comparison of average grams of soy eaten by Asians compared to current in the US, plus the production of soy to begin with, which was concerning to me. Maybe it's valid & maybe not so much... I'm no scientist.
excerpt: "There's nothing natural about these modern soy protein products. Textured soy protein, for example, is made by forcing defatted soy flour through a machine called an extruder under conditions of such extreme heat and pressure that the very structure of the soy protein is changed. Production differs little from the extrusion technology used to produce starch-based packing materials, fiber-based industrial products, and plastic toy parts, bowls, and plates.16"
*please don't pounce on me... please don't pounce on me... *
No pouncing here! But I have to point out that the distinction between food science and food policy is not always crystal clear. Because nutritional science is so poorly understood, people with agendas and a few facts can, and often do, make all kinds of health claims that are not well supported by the research. poohb, I liked your article, but I found it very telling that when I clicked on the link to "letters and responses," I found a number of responses from the researchers whose studies she cited, finding fault with the article for misconstruing or misunderstanding their findings. This underscores that her article is a persuasive work, intended to present the facts so as to support a particular point of view, and is therefore more of an argument for food policy than an objective presentation of food science.
I have no objection to questioning the health benefits of soy, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that soy, like pretty much everything else, could be unhealthy when consumed immoderately. I also think it's possible that other factors, such as exposure to high quantities of environmental estrogens, can result in harmful accumulations. But this is less an indictment of soy than of modern environmental conditions in general. The black women - soy formula correlation, for example, I found extremely tenuous ... environmental justice organizations have all kinds of statistics about how minority groups are significantly more likely to be exposed to harmful levels of environmental pollutants than middle class white people (like me).
Also, many people are not aware how many plant foods contain natural toxins of all kinds. Potatoes, rhubarb, and red beans, for example, all contain different compounds that can have extremely toxic effects in people. But unless a person is particularly sensitive, they rarely have any significant effect. Isolating a chemical in a lab and testing it in extremely high doses on animals with different metabolic processes than our own just isn't likely, in my opinion, to tell us anything useful about how our own bodies process the compound. Questions about dosage and/or synergy are rarely addressed.
I don't believe there is any reason to be afraid of soy unless a person has particular sensitivities that could be affected, such as a compromised thyroid. Nor do I think it is necessary to eat soy 3, 4 or more times a day. Variety and balance, in my opinion, are always more likely to minimize health risks from eating a particular food than eliminating a perfectly viable food source due to the presence of a few "worrisome" compounds.
I have no objection to questioning the health benefits of soy, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that soy, like pretty much everything else, could be unhealthy when consumed immoderately. I also think it's possible that other factors, such as exposure to high quantities of environmental estrogens, can result in harmful accumulations. But this is less an indictment of soy than of modern environmental conditions in general. The black women - soy formula correlation, for example, I found extremely tenuous ... environmental justice organizations have all kinds of statistics about how minority groups are significantly more likely to be exposed to harmful levels of environmental pollutants than middle class white people (like me).
Also, many people are not aware how many plant foods contain natural toxins of all kinds. Potatoes, rhubarb, and red beans, for example, all contain different compounds that can have extremely toxic effects in people. But unless a person is particularly sensitive, they rarely have any significant effect. Isolating a chemical in a lab and testing it in extremely high doses on animals with different metabolic processes than our own just isn't likely, in my opinion, to tell us anything useful about how our own bodies process the compound. Questions about dosage and/or synergy are rarely addressed.
I don't believe there is any reason to be afraid of soy unless a person has particular sensitivities that could be affected, such as a compromised thyroid. Nor do I think it is necessary to eat soy 3, 4 or more times a day. Variety and balance, in my opinion, are always more likely to minimize health risks from eating a particular food than eliminating a perfectly viable food source due to the presence of a few "worrisome" compounds.
This has little to do with men and soy (besides the fact that men are roughly half the population...I am anyway a woman), but while we're on soy:
From all of the articles I've ever looked at, soy is better than meat for long-term health, but is no health food because it is processed and manipulated. I don't think everyone reacts to it the same way, but I think it is better to be aware of the potential effects of soy while we wait for more research.
I do use soy milk (though also Oatly and rice milk) and eat some tofu, tempeh, etc. perhaps twice a month. From my experience, soy milk every day is no problem, but I think if I ate tofu every day, I would be in trouble. No largely processed food should be the basis of anyone's nutrition. Soy yogurt, like most cow's milk yogurt, has a lot of sugar and is therefore not really a health food either.
I also don't think any non-organic soy product should be used. Soy production, because of the hype and demand of soy as a health food (which I am against, as no food will solve all problems), is heavily gen-tech and is one of the most heavily chemical-laden agricultural products. I go organic with these things, or not at all.
That said, I think meat and cow's milk (even the organic sort) cause a lot more problems in today's society, as they are everywhere and we don't even question it...something infinitely more dangerous.
From all of the articles I've ever looked at, soy is better than meat for long-term health, but is no health food because it is processed and manipulated. I don't think everyone reacts to it the same way, but I think it is better to be aware of the potential effects of soy while we wait for more research.
I do use soy milk (though also Oatly and rice milk) and eat some tofu, tempeh, etc. perhaps twice a month. From my experience, soy milk every day is no problem, but I think if I ate tofu every day, I would be in trouble. No largely processed food should be the basis of anyone's nutrition. Soy yogurt, like most cow's milk yogurt, has a lot of sugar and is therefore not really a health food either.
I also don't think any non-organic soy product should be used. Soy production, because of the hype and demand of soy as a health food (which I am against, as no food will solve all problems), is heavily gen-tech and is one of the most heavily chemical-laden agricultural products. I go organic with these things, or not at all.
That said, I think meat and cow's milk (even the organic sort) cause a lot more problems in today's society, as they are everywhere and we don't even question it...something infinitely more dangerous.
Also I want to point out how heavily the research into both the soy industry and the dairy/meat industries is biased by groups for and against the consumption of these things. As there is never scientific neutrality (and even less here on these issues), I think all studies need to be seen from their biases.
lysistrata: I will point out that a lot of the bigger soy studies have been in Asia and the possibility of genetic factors has not been ruled out.
Yes, and this is very interesting, especially compared to say, lactose tolerance in European populations. I would like to see more research in this area.
poohb: I tried to bring this up once before after adding Kashi bars to my daily diet & seeing, um, odd hormonal changes... but people got so mad at me for questioning the health of soy without having done my own detailed scientific study that I ran far away!!!
Thank you all for providing links to read up on more.
I just want to clarify that I am by no means saying that soy is bad for some people. I don't doubt the experience of you or venix's friend. But it's so hard to generalize from anecdotes. I think you have the right idea though, read through the info, question, and decide what's right for you. And I would never jump on you sharing your conclusions with other people, if you're saying, "This is what I found, for me." :) Your body is your body, and you know it best.
lysistrata: But I have to point out that the distinction between food science and food policy is not always crystal clear.
This can never be repeated enough. Ketchup as veg, anyone?
kungfu17: From my experience, soy milk every day is no problem, but I think if I ate tofu every day, I would be in trouble. No largely processed food should be the basis of anyone's nutrition.
Hmm. Out of curiousity, is it the tofu or the commerical processing that is the problem here? That is, would your feeling be different about home-made tofu?
---
Also, just to throw a new monkey-wrench in this discussion, I forgot to mention that in Taiwan, there is a specialty called "Stinky Tofu," which is a fermented tofu. I haven't had the opportunity to try it, but I've heard "it tastes better than it smells!" :D
Yes, and this is very interesting, especially compared to say, lactose tolerance in European populations. I would like to see more research in this area.
poohb: I tried to bring this up once before after adding Kashi bars to my daily diet & seeing, um, odd hormonal changes... but people got so mad at me for questioning the health of soy without having done my own detailed scientific study that I ran far away!!!
Thank you all for providing links to read up on more.
I just want to clarify that I am by no means saying that soy is bad for some people. I don't doubt the experience of you or venix's friend. But it's so hard to generalize from anecdotes. I think you have the right idea though, read through the info, question, and decide what's right for you. And I would never jump on you sharing your conclusions with other people, if you're saying, "This is what I found, for me." :) Your body is your body, and you know it best.
lysistrata: But I have to point out that the distinction between food science and food policy is not always crystal clear.
This can never be repeated enough. Ketchup as veg, anyone?
kungfu17: From my experience, soy milk every day is no problem, but I think if I ate tofu every day, I would be in trouble. No largely processed food should be the basis of anyone's nutrition.
Hmm. Out of curiousity, is it the tofu or the commerical processing that is the problem here? That is, would your feeling be different about home-made tofu?
---
Also, just to throw a new monkey-wrench in this discussion, I forgot to mention that in Taiwan, there is a specialty called "Stinky Tofu," which is a fermented tofu. I haven't had the opportunity to try it, but I've heard "it tastes better than it smells!" :D
I think the commercially processed tofu does worry me more than home-made tofu. Though due to certain studies, I still believe in moderation and wouldn't eat home-made tofu every day.
Yet I somehow think home-made tofu might be eaten more often than the store-bought type. I think any step taken to ensure reliability of ingredients and proper storage is a step in the right direction, but obviously this doesn't solve the problem of the potential effects of the soybeans themselves and the specific chemicals included in their composition.
On the other hand, the methods of processing are particularly relevant here, and making it yourself and learning about making it and storing it could help someone with apparent soy problems determine if it is the tofu that's the problem or whether the problem is the way it's produced or the way they are using it.
For instance, people assume they can eat tofu right out of the pack because it's already cooked, but this just isn't true a lot of the time. Unless it's going to be very thoroughly cooked, any tofu should be first boiled for about 5 min. to kill any bacteria that grows in the package (and it's a good environment for bacteria...not air-tight, water-packed, plenty of protein).
I speak from experience. I first thought it was the soy that was causing me the adverse effects I experienced and that I couldn't tolerate soy (I swore I'd never eat it again...despite having no trouble with soy milk) until I figured out it was prone to bacteria and needed boiling even before I cooked it because I was only lightly sauteing it. If I would have made it at home and consumed it before it sat in a pack for an extended period of time, I don't think I would have had the problem.
Yet I somehow think home-made tofu might be eaten more often than the store-bought type. I think any step taken to ensure reliability of ingredients and proper storage is a step in the right direction, but obviously this doesn't solve the problem of the potential effects of the soybeans themselves and the specific chemicals included in their composition.
On the other hand, the methods of processing are particularly relevant here, and making it yourself and learning about making it and storing it could help someone with apparent soy problems determine if it is the tofu that's the problem or whether the problem is the way it's produced or the way they are using it.
For instance, people assume they can eat tofu right out of the pack because it's already cooked, but this just isn't true a lot of the time. Unless it's going to be very thoroughly cooked, any tofu should be first boiled for about 5 min. to kill any bacteria that grows in the package (and it's a good environment for bacteria...not air-tight, water-packed, plenty of protein).
I speak from experience. I first thought it was the soy that was causing me the adverse effects I experienced and that I couldn't tolerate soy (I swore I'd never eat it again...despite having no trouble with soy milk) until I figured out it was prone to bacteria and needed boiling even before I cooked it because I was only lightly sauteing it. If I would have made it at home and consumed it before it sat in a pack for an extended period of time, I don't think I would have had the problem.
A lot of people miss the point when it comes to whether a food is really good for them, which is "does it serve me well in the long term?" You can survive on a lot of different foods that may make you feel okay for now, but in the long term you could be accumulating damage in some way.
I want to state for the record that i *know* my views are not of the mainstream. Medical science alleges that diseases and disorders are either genetic or infectious, and I think that's only half the story. Genetics play a role in determining how well we function based on what fuel we provide, and infections are things that happen to a body when it's been weakened from improper treatment, i.e. living in a polluted environemnt and/or polluting yourself with suboptimal foods.
With respect to soy, I just can't fathom why you'd want to make a long-term experiment of yourself. You may feel alright with a high consumption of soy today, but what if your genetics set you up for a higher risk of Alzheimer's, thyroid cancer, ovarian cancer, or some other disease of toxicity?
These are all my opinions, disclaimer disclaimer, etc. :)
There's no mention of soy there, just the aging population. Korea is a recently developed country, people are living longer and thus more likely to develop diseases of old age.
Yes, exactly right. As people start living longer, you're going to see more "diseases of old age" -- meaning you're finally going to see the long-term effects of people's lifestyle and eating habits.
I'll also mention that there's been a lot of news here recently about the connection between heavy drinking (very common here) and Alzheimer's.
Yes, I've heard that one too. Who knows, maybe it's from aluminum beer cans. :)
The soy connection is pure speculation on your part.
Well, someone's gotta connect the dots from time to time.
Also, just to throw a new monkey-wrench in this discussion, I forgot to mention that in Taiwan, there is a specialty called "Stinky Tofu," which is a fermented tofu. I haven't had the opportunity to try it, but I've heard "it tastes better than it smells!" :D
Sounds like natto!
I want to state for the record that i *know* my views are not of the mainstream. Medical science alleges that diseases and disorders are either genetic or infectious, and I think that's only half the story. Genetics play a role in determining how well we function based on what fuel we provide, and infections are things that happen to a body when it's been weakened from improper treatment, i.e. living in a polluted environemnt and/or polluting yourself with suboptimal foods.
With respect to soy, I just can't fathom why you'd want to make a long-term experiment of yourself. You may feel alright with a high consumption of soy today, but what if your genetics set you up for a higher risk of Alzheimer's, thyroid cancer, ovarian cancer, or some other disease of toxicity?
These are all my opinions, disclaimer disclaimer, etc. :)
There's no mention of soy there, just the aging population. Korea is a recently developed country, people are living longer and thus more likely to develop diseases of old age.
Yes, exactly right. As people start living longer, you're going to see more "diseases of old age" -- meaning you're finally going to see the long-term effects of people's lifestyle and eating habits.
I'll also mention that there's been a lot of news here recently about the connection between heavy drinking (very common here) and Alzheimer's.
Yes, I've heard that one too. Who knows, maybe it's from aluminum beer cans. :)
The soy connection is pure speculation on your part.
Well, someone's gotta connect the dots from time to time.
Also, just to throw a new monkey-wrench in this discussion, I forgot to mention that in Taiwan, there is a specialty called "Stinky Tofu," which is a fermented tofu. I haven't had the opportunity to try it, but I've heard "it tastes better than it smells!" :D
Sounds like natto!
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